Digging

[trobbi33]

Thanks for your advice Tom. If you say its a waste of time and I don't want to mess up anything when it comes to history then I will not attempt it. Thanks for posting and I feel very privileged that you share your knowledge with me.

[comanche]

Very Impressive Dig Site Dr. Hester
I can totally understand what you are saying.
If we as Advocationalist.Tear into a Site Looking for "Trophies.Then we are totally missing the Main Idea of Archaeology.
Great Point.
I just wish more of us understood the Importance of What we are doing.Perhaps I was A bit Critical with my Judgments on the Prof. that was Supervising the dig I was refering to.
Once the Context was established.I can see where They Dropped the search and Left the remainder in-tact//////c

[MidlandMan]

I don't want to be the fly in the ointment but why do avocational archaeologist and professional archaeologist have to be mutualy antagonistic? I and most of the people who post here while trying to find build a nice collection respect and do not wish to destroy but rather protect, curate, and add to a heritage we all feel proud to be a part of!! How many important sites have been found and brought to the attention of professional archaeologist? If not most than many. We are overall not a greedy lot and while a few bad apples may spoil the barrel WE have added greatly to the understanding of these lost histories and expanded the horizons archaeology is based on! Alternativly we as avocationalist must not attack the professional community as they provide us valuable insights and knowledge we otherwise would not be able to access. These people have dedicated their lives to a pure science that has few rewards other than the pursuit of esoteric knowledge itself!! We need eachother and must learn to work towards the goal of enlightening future generations. I believe that there is enough for us all. The horror stories the esteemed and honored Dr. Hester alluded to are real but archaeology itself has its own more secret horror stories to boot. There has to be a common middle ground we can all agree on.

[comanche]

I agree Mid-Man.
I think the division comes from The goals of Most collectors.(Bigger Better Finds,,et,al.)
These kind of ideas are in direct conflict with the Professional world Just Trying to under stand Past Cultures.

For Instance,,,,,How Many advocationalist take the time to study and Research exactly who they are digging into.Most might go as far as trying to Date there finds ,,only because of the monetary gain,,,But how Many of us really have a desire to Know who we are Tearing into,,,,,,Not Many///////c

[seco]

Midland Man:

Professional archaeologists and avocational archaeologists are not mutually antagonistic. In Texas, at least, an avocational archaeologist is a person who does professional-level archaeology, but earns a living in another fashion
(farmer, fibre-optic specialist, homemakers, etc., etc.). In reality,
"avocational" is not the same as "artifact collector." Not that there is anything wrong with that. I started out as an artifact collector, changing through opportunities in high school, and then obtaining the necessary training and degrees to be an archaeologist and professor.

You are right that there is tension between professionals and collectors...more so in some states and more so among some professionals.
Those of us who have been doing archaeology in Texas for 45 years, have
always worked with anybody who has artifacts and want to talk to us, and with whom we can share information. Personally, I've co-published in scientific journals more than 200 papers with collectors (some I converted to
avocationalism; a little Kool-aid,etc.). I wouldn't be on this Forum unless
I felt I had something to learn, and something to babble about in return.

There are so many kinds of collectors, just as there is a wide range of professionals. Some collectors share info, are grateful for any advice or
loan of publications, etc. In south Texas, we have most "surface collectors" with whom it is pretty easy to work. There have always been hobbyist
diggers, or "pothunters", or "looters' (terms most commonly used by
avocational archaeologists who are trying to protect sites.) Many of
my old friends, some long gone, would dig for 20 years on a central Texas
site, and walk away with 80% (or more) of the site intact. One fellow I've
worked with for several years dug with a couple of friends at a site near
here -- and was a huge help when I started an excavation program there with avocationals. Fully 95% of that site was intact, though he had dug there for decades.

The contrast today which upsets so many professionals and avocationals
(and I must say, quite a lot of collectors) is the Mechanized PayDig that
destroys whole sites,using backhoes, piling the dirt on big screens, and charging people $200/day to easter-egg hunt on the screens. I emphasize, as I have on this Forum before, that this is a wholly legal activity in Texas, given landowner permission, leases, or outright purchases of sites. That
activity will always generate mutal antagonism strictly from the point of
view of Sciences Vs Goodies.

TRH

[MidlandMan]

Comanche, I agree that the possibility of monetary gain is the motivating force for many in this "hobby". I personaly find the mining of artifacts, especialy in ancient cemetarys, for profit exceptionaly odious!! The sale and trade of artifacts I find irreprehensable and crosses the border of what is moraly wrong. i wish these wonderous treasures had no monetary value and once they lose their locality and context meerly become baubles of the art trade. I know this statement will not gain me many friends but I also know many (I hope!) are shaking their heads in agreement. I've never in all my years been to an artifact show as it would sicken my heart to do so. The people who left these treasures in the ground ioved their familys and loved the land, sky, water, and all creation. They planted their bones in the same earth we all shall in time. With a deep and profound respect and admiration of these people should we proceed. This is the last I have to say about this and I'll climb down off my soapbox now and go stare at my collection for a while.

[MidlandMan]

Comanche, I agree that the possibility of monetary gain is the motivating force for many in this "hobby". I personaly find the mining of artifacts, especialy in ancient cemetarys, for profit exceptionaly odious!! The sale and trade of artifacts I find irreprehensable and crosses the border of what is moraly wrong. i wish these wonderous treasures had no monetary value and once they lose their locality and context meerly become baubles of the art trade. I know this statement will not gain me many friends but I also know many (I hope!) are shaking their heads in agreement. I've never in all my years been to an artifact show as it would sicken my heart to do so. The people who left these treasures in the ground ioved their familys and loved the land, sky, water, and all creation. They planted their bones in the same earth we all shall in time. With a deep and profound respect and admiration of these people should we proceed. This is the last I have to say about this and I'll climb down off my soapbox now and go stare at my collection for a while.

[Bobby]

Well I dig as many have seen from my posts, right or wrong I am going to do so. I work very hard at keeping a clean dig. I'm not in it for the money because if I added up the many hours, gas to get there and back, ice, drinks, food, tools, lease, and my time I would probably profit about $0.32 an hour at best and maybe in the hole who knows for sure. Since I don't sell my points I have a pretty decent collection. Yes I am getting a little spoiled it seems but what I don't want for my collection I share with others. There are some on this forum that knows that is true.
I used to be all about the points but lately I have really been getting into the different tools. The tools out number the points at my site and some of them are very well made and interesting.
It is my outlet from the stress of my business and 50 to 60 hour weeks. It keeps me active and outdoors, it keeps me out of strip clubs and bars. Logging in my finds and studying my finds under the scope helps with my blood pressure each night. Posting my finds and pictures of my dig on the forums for others to see is enjoyment for me.
There have already been sites like mine dug and documented by professionals and IF we find something out of the ordinary or something so called new we will inform someone like Mr. Hester. I have already shown Mr. Hester some points I am not sure about from our site and he seemed interested in them. I am getting more of them so there will be a variety of them to show him.
I would like to send the points to the Dr. or better yet Seco I would like to invite you out to dinner some time so I can treat you to a meal and visit with you. I think I could learn plenty from you. I know I am a digger but the screen digging is just wrong. I tried it once and its not for me. All that is for is so people with a fat wallet can have a nice collection in a hurry without having to put any back breaking effort into it.
Sorry for rambling on now I have to go put in another long day at work so I can try to scratch out a living.