What's up with this one?

[Cluton]

I know it should be in What In The World, It has no flaking that resembles the Angos we find! The flakes look totally different, what do y'all think? It's ground very deep, about 50%, and it has a median ridge on one side for sure! Mojave, help me out here?!!!!! It doesn't have that normal Ango flaking, it's has big cross flakes taken out, almost smooth on one side!??

[Cluton]

Actually a median type ridge on both sides, could it be an AB??? I'll get a sunlit shot tommorrow, it's nice root beer trans too! This one is throwing me off!! Thanks in advance!

[John G. Scoggins]

Any chance it could be a Hell Gap?

[Mojave]

It does look similar to the one I did the blog on. I think these are all generally related to Agate Basin, but I'm in sort of a lump-ish mood today.
The one I have has most of the metrics one would use to identify AB except the sides aren't quite parallel enough and the flaking isn’t perfect. But all my reference is based on the couple hundred points that Frison published from the type site. Given the common definitions used these days for myriad points, the type site AB points are actually not typical. This is where it all goes south for me.
If you want to define the Agate Basin point as being long, narrow, thick, horizontally percussion flaked with pressure edge retouch, with remarkable attention to symmetry in all dimensions, and laterally (not basally) ground, you’d have to include mine, yours, Rice Lanceolates, Nebo Hills (?) and a plethora of other un-named points from around the country with those characteristics. And then you throw in all the so-called “Lermas” and it really gets dicey. I didn’t really want to start a Lerma argument but there is no type site for that. It is a term invented by authenticators and folks like Overstreet who want to be the ultimate splitters and have a nice neat category for everything.
Anyway, are all these about the same time period? Probably. Are they (the technology and form) at least influenced by each other? Probably. Are they all Agate Basins? If that’s what you want to call them…
The last time I looked in an Overstreet’s, I think I estimated around 1 in 5 Agate Basins were actually Agate Basins if you want to take the strictest definition from Frison’s research.
A couple other things to clarify that pretty much everyone would agree on, AB points don’t generally have median ridges. I’m not sure where that perception came from. I hope I didn’t say it. That is, IMO, the main thing that separates AB from Haskett. The other thing is diagonal flaking. That is diagnostic for Angostura. If a point has diagonal flaking, it is NOT an Agate Basin.

[Cluton]

Well dammit Mo!! what is it then? An Ango? I'll get some sunlit shots today! Oh sorry I didn't get with you 2 weeks ago, been at Port O Connor every weekend, fishin!! Can't dig lately, More back procedures! Thanks for the comments, throw a type guess out there for me!!?

[Jay R]

I say Angostura. J

[Mojave]

Originally Posted by Cluton

throw a type guess out there for me!!?

Agatangolermastura Basin?

Seriously, I feel I am approaching an inflection point (no pun intended) in my hobby. Between the Agate Basin controversies and some of the data I've been gathering in support of another research project for the Plains Conference in October, I am having greater difficulty in separating stuff. I used to need to distinguish everything into categories and types. In most cases it isn’t hard but in this case it is. I am slowly becoming comfortable with lumping in some cases.
I wrote an article that touched on this several weeks ago and sent to Shannon. I haven’t heard back. Has anyone heard from Shannon lately?

In all honesty, if I was forced to categorize yours, I’d probably agree with Jay R and call it an Angostura.

[joshuaream]

Originally Posted by Mojave

Agatangolermastura Basin?

Sooner or later that will be on a COA or in Overstreets.

Nice point whatever you decide to call it.

[jhaberer]

I agree with Jay, I'd say Angostura.

The Angostura in Texas have a lot of variation.

jhaberer

[jhaberer]

Mojave,

Lots of Angostura in Texas may have an Agate Basin look, but they don't have the age.

jhaberer