Midland! Need some advice!?

[Cluton]

Gonna try again for help on this piece! I know it's a Midland! I think? Ryno examined it, and he agrees! My question is: does the flaking look right? Are Midlands, true Folsom preforms? And does anybody have examples to compare? I would love to see em!! Mr Westfall, Ryan told me to post it and see if you could give an opinion! Thanks guys, I just need any advice I can get!






This piece whole, just guessing, would be well over 3 in! Thanks guys! Just very curious!

[knife river]

Doesn't look Midland to me. Oblique pressure flaking and no super-fine edge work. Nice piece, though!

To answer your other question, Midlands are not Folsom preforms. I think they were made by the same folks, though. From what I've seen from assemblages like Shifting Sand, Midlands were made on flakes which were too thin to flute, but thick enough to pressure flake a point out of.

[Ryno]

Then what is it?

[Tom Westfall]

It's not Midland...in Colorado, I would classify it as a Goshen which is northern version of Plainview, though I think they're better made than most Plainview are. Midland points are found in Folsom campsites, and there's a lot of question as to why some are fluted and some not...some speculate that it has to do with the paucity of material--if you're far from the source, you may not want to risk a flute failure so you do midland. It could be that the preform was to thin to flute, but I've seen some Folsoms that were thinner than most midland following fluting. It could have been personal preference. We don't really get a lot of Midland up here--much more Folsom. I probably have 100 or more Folsom and Folsom fragments in my collection and less than 10 Midland points, and several of those were ones I think they made on thick channel flakes. Hope this helps. Tom

[lillyput]

So frustrating.....and most folks don't understand that what it is makes a difference as to how much time and energy you put into that location. Plus we have a curious mind. I'm not much help Cluton, I have a number of similar pieces. keep bringing it up! and keep looking for its brother

[Cluton]

Thanks guys! 2 questions though: we found Midland examples With Oblique flaking and Do Goshens have those articulate little Folsom/Midlsnd ears?? KR and Mr Westfall you guys are very knowledgable, I'm not doubting your statements, just wondering, and thank you gentlemen for commenting! And Ms Lilly, your always sweet, don't forget about the Fred Show girlfriend!!!

[knife river]

Cluton, do you have pics of your Midlands with oblique flaking? I'd love to see them! And yep, Goshens can and do have those little ears. The classics from the Mill Iron type site had them.

By the way, somebody asked George Frison a couple years ago about the difference between a Goshen and a Plainview. Word is, he said there aren't any differences. He now thinks they're the same animal with lots of regional flavors. Interesting...

[Mojave]

This was the subject of several papers presented at the Plains Conference in Tucson in late October. One report by Tony Baker and I specifically looked at the various points that appear to be the same thing. The subject was Plainview but Tony wanted to compare Belen points (named by his Dad in the 1960s) and I wanted to compare Blackrock points from the Great Basin. We looked at various metrics like width, W/T, flaking style, basal concavity, etc. Belen points statistically (small sample size) are the least concave, although one notable Mill Iron Goshen has no concavity.
The current conclusion is that all the Blackrock/Goshen/Plainview are the same. One of the most significant distinctions (to me anyways) is the total lack of diagonal flaking. I wanted to include Midland points but the whole Midland/Folsom discussion is very complicated which is something we tried to point out without distracting from the subject. I think a better definition of Midland is needed. I have a Bostrom cast of a famous "Midland" point from Blackwater Draw that is clearly identical to Goshen and Blackrock. It has the same width/W-to-T ratio/flaking/etc as a classic Blackrock of mine from Nye County Nevada. If Midland is the same as Folsom, this point clearly can't be a Midland because it is the same as Goshen/Blackrock. I don't think it is a Midland at all, but,....
Anyway, this research is thankfully continuing. The work done for the Plains Conference along with the continuing work of Charlotte Beck, Vance Holliday, Ruthann Knudson, and a bunch of others has been significant this year by introducing the Blackrock point to the forefront and looking at all the Plainview-ish styles. Remember Goshen points were found BELOW Folsom at Mill Iron. Other work this next year includes introducing the little-known St. Mary's Hall point from Texas to see where it fits in. (with its diagonal flaking and all) Should be interesting.
BTW, if anyone wants a copy of the paper from Tucson, PM me your email address and I'll send you a .pdf.

[Cluton]

Hey John, I hope you had a great Holidays! I wouldn't have a problem lending you this point to help! I'll send it to you if you are interested in it! You've always been good to me! I trust you! would you send me the papers to read? I'm happy to see you posting again buddy, and I enjoyed your Mojave Jr post, good lookin kid! Thanks for info! Would you PM me please, it's easier for me to reply to you, not to good at sending PMs for some reason! Happy New Year sir, hope you find killers this year!

[Cluton]

I've got another for you to look at that Mr Crain said is probably a St Marys Hall! So let me know if you would like to see it!