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  1. #11
    Graduate Arrowheadologist
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    Illinois
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    Without having that one in hand it's going to be hard to say. I would suspect that it would be okay but I would like to see it in hand. The mineralization and knapping look correct. I agree with the others that the notches look kind of funny but I've seen that sort of hinge coloration on authentic hornstone before.

    The fact that pieces have hinges on northern points is not something to frown upon. In fact, on Burlington chert one of the things to look for is "blue hinges" Blue hinges are a result soil and organic deposits under a hinge fracture. Blue hinges can be faked but the ones I've seen in attempts haven't been too convincing.

    Hippy

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  3. #12
    Arrowheadologist
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    Jul 2009
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    Cincinnati
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    Iowa,

    Never perfect from pics, but I lean heavily towards good. I don't claim to know Wisconsin extremely well, but I have purchased a few collections from the area. I remember at least two points made from what I believed to be Hornstone. You also see a material out of Michigan that looks like hornstone, but you rarely see it in Northern Ohio. I have a hair brain theory that there are "Northern" outcroppings of Hornstone or at least a very similar flint vein. This piece falls into that material class. This is a long winded way of saying the material doesn't bother me for Wisconsin.
    The form is slightly troubling, but my eye says still in the acceptable range for Snyders. The hinges don't bother me, and there sure appears to be obvious authentic raised mineralization. From the non-scientific side, it just looks old to me.
    Interesting to know what others have thought that handled it.
    Regards,
    Jon Dickinson.

  4. #13
    Tribal Council Member
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    Nov 2009
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    Point Blank , TEXAS
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    4,078
    impossible to judge by pic . 99 % of the guys on this forum ( myself included ) can't be 75% sure on 50% of those in hand----and THAT statemenmt is 100% correct -----

  5. #14
    Tribal Council Member
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    Jan 2010
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    Iowa
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    Hippy...a couple of the hinges did bothered me.

    pointdlr....The material is very unusual for this area almost 100% of the Hopewell/Snyder's from the upper midwest are made of burlington chert and are heat treated .

  6. #15
    Arrowheadologist
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    Jul 2009
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    Cincinnati
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    The Adena drill was found in Wisconsin. A friend of Hippy's named Kevin Lysinski bought it from me. I mention this, b/c it had an exact provenance down to the farmer's property, and maybe someone knows Kevin and can ask him. I would say the material is very similar to the one in the pics.
    Also pictured are 2 Wisconsin Snyders made from Praire Du'Chein that I sold to Steve Gobeli. I had exact provenance on these pieces also. I could only find one of these pictured individually, but I added a pic of the whole collection, and the Snyder's are in the top left of the picture. You may note the super Hixton piece, and the material variety.
    The last pic is of a Hornstone Snyders from the extreme North West portion of Indiana I had years ago. If nothing else, these rocks are examples of why generalizations about where something can be found are dangerous.
    Regards,
    Jon Dickinson
    P.S- Shoot me an email(jondickinson75@cinci.rr.com), I wanted to talk about our mutual friend in Iowa. I visited several times with him recently.
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  7. #16
    Graduate Arrowheadologist
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    Mar 2010
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    Illinois
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    Tomorrow I'll try posting a few examples of personally found local pieces of hornstone. In the collections that I have viewed it shows that hornstone transportation to the north is most often, I would say 95% of the time, done by two cultures. Those would be paleo including clovis and middle woodland. There are also some early woodland turkeytail caches found in Wisconsin made of hornstone.

    I like the fact that the piece is hopewell and hornstone because it's what I would expect to be made of hornstone. If it was a middle archaic or side notched point I would have real doubts. I have a personally found broken snyders made of hornstone, a waubesa, and a hopewell core all of hornstone found locally. The hopewell people moved materials quite commonly and the fact that it's a hornstone Snyders is definitely a good sign.

    Hippy

  8. #17
    Tribal Council Member
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    Jul 2009
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    Central Illinois
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    Okay Guys, I have a question here. These have been called hornstone here and that may be right, but I have been to the Cobden quarry in Illinois and some of this stuff could be confused for Cobden. Lots of it has the bullseye and the color. How can you tell the difference?

  9. #18
    Arrowheadologist
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    Jul 2009
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    Cincinnati
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    Rmartin,
    The main difference between Hornstone and Cobden is that Cobden is lighter in color than Hornstone. The color tends to be "muted". Another way I tell the difference is to ask my buddies who know Southern Illinois material very well. That is my way of saying that the difference's are subtle.

    Iowa,
    I think I found the smoking gun in my pictures for the piece you posted. I knew that I had a Snyder's from Wisconsin made from that material. First picture is the piece, and second picture is the provenance data. If the writing is blurry, the Snyder was found 3 miles South of Oconto Falls on the Oconto River in Oconto County, Wisconsin. Purchased from the finder, who later showed Kevin L. the exact field where it was found.

    Regards,
    Jon Dickinson.
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  10. #19
    Tribal Council Member
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    Kinda out of my Known relm,,,But I have always seen that Cobden will have distinct swirls,,,Although I have seen Hornstone with Bulls eyes,,,It does not have these swirls,,,as far as I have seen///c
    Forty Six & 2 ///// Catch

  11. #20
    Moderator
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    Feb 2010
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    Mineralization, "wear" and patina are specifically what the arti-fakers do to varying degrees of "success" to produce frauds. Personally, I would offer no opinion unless I could see the mineralization under a scope/loupe (or scope pix) and see scope pix of the inside of the notches and the base if basal grinding is appropriate for that example (out of my area). And all this assumes that the form and material is correct for the provenance. I know I again sound like the proverbial broken record but you can easily dismiss a LOT of fakes with a decent 10X loupe and a little knowledge about what to look for (I not talking about examining a $10K cache Clovis)
    Last edited by mootsman; 12-19-2010 at 09:28 AM.
    "I believe every man must make his own path" Blackfoot

 

 
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