"Bird" point challenge.

[Mud Hawk]

Original thread here:

2-28-11 finds

Primary discrepency is a reply to above thread for a "type" of sorts:

OK, I will assume no knappers read this post and I ask a second question... Are "Bird" scale points regional to an extent or not... I will ask a bordering state guru. Steve Valentine, what say ye? Found any "bird" points at the Fort Ancient grounds? If so, is there a concentration of them being found near/in water? I am really curious to the scale of this point. I really don't buy into the "practice point for the young" nor "bird hunting". If I was hungry, the point I knapped (presumably) would not be wasted on a small overhead bird. Honestly, there is NOT MUCH MEAT THERE. About the same as hunting a rat for your dinner. There are better methods to accomplish this, minus skill and labor. You, as a hunter, also probably have to feed a family instead of just yourself. Family and Community.

The scale might serve a practical purpose. Maybe it is tiny to "spear hunt" fish, i guess. I would imagine one of those "Bird" sized points attached to a thinner shaft/spear and an intact/still attached "shave" of the branch near the flint head creating a barb would snare a fish close to the shore quite nicely. Something even a younger generation could start on yet still contribute to the family/tribe unit.

The scale would definately cut down on water/surface resistance... A carved fish hook (bone/shell) would NOT last long in a river once it was lost. Shell would shatter, bone would soften and break. The forces of nature.

Plain and simple rule... The more questions you ask, the closer you can understand the principles behind it.

Another question in physics... Why a bird hunting point? If you are shooting towards the sky, you would have to haft a tiny point to a heavier bolt. It would generaly not be able to have enough velocity to pierce while shooting towards the sky. Gravity. You NEED weight to reach the heighth of a bird in the sky... Let alone the insane amount of accuracy. Obviously this isnt being accomplished by the stone "Birdie" arrowhead. To have any validity to hunting a bird, the prey would either have to be a turkey or a bird that shore fishes such as a herring etc.

Conjecture is simple. Natural laws, principles, and physiology are stone solid even in todays standards.

[tomclark]

They are just called Bird Points in general. They were used for all kinds of small game and possibly even larger game due to the velocity of the shaft/point and the tracking ability of the hunter. IMHOP if they shot birds they hit them when they were on the ground or just taking off/landing. Robins, coots, ducks, etc, etc. "Bird Points" are not found in bodies of water any more than dry sites, nor is there a preponderance of them in water compared to older lithic types, as far as I've ever determined. I don't call them bird points just true arrowheads. I am mostly sure that in my area of shallow coastal waters they speared fish, with bone pin tips or leister tips. Mostly they netted them here.

[blue]

1. In my opinion there are more efficient ways to take birds than with bow and arrow.
2. Bird points are found in non fishing regions.
3. Bird points are harder to nap because they are smaller, and there is more room for error, therefore bird points to some extint reflect craftmanship.
4. If indeed points were artwork, and some were medicine. Perhaps it was easier to carry around your art work, and medicine if it was in a smaller form.

Do impact fractures on bird points give any indication of there usage?

Would the smaller point make less noise in the air and perhaps give an advantage to the user?

Are there several different possible uses for bird points by several different cultures?

[Cluton]

With a bow, larger points won't work!! I've been bowhunting for years, 75 and a 100 grain is all I use!! My broadheads have a 7/8 cutting diameter and cause massive damage! Shot placement is a must! That being said, native bows did not have the power of new compound bows! The long bows used would have at the most 45 lbs of draw weight, or that's the guess! A big point would not fly correct at all! There are sites in Texas with bird points at bison kill sites and sites that have dead natives with bird points embedded in bones!! Another example of a bird point embedded in a deer pelvis, Turner and Hester book!!!! So big game and humans were hit with "birdies", and documented! I do believe natives used these points in various ways; fish, standing birds, small game! But they were also used for bigger stuff! No doubt! The bow brought new times and new techniques, but no doubt used very deadly on bigger targets!!! I've killed more hogs with a smaller broadhead, penetration is the secret!!! Over 60 hogs and 40 or so deer with a 7/8 cutting diameter!!!! Birds were just an extra meal when big animals werent available!!! Texas Beyond History website has sites where some of these facts were documented!!!

[rmartin]

I am really glad you brought this up Mud. I used to shudder when I heard birdpoint. In my opinion, when a prehistoric American sat down to chip out some arrowheads he was not making them to shoot birds. He was making them to fit his arrow shaft that he would shoot at basically any thing that moved. This is a term that is as old as collcting itself and lots of folks that use it know better. Ever heard the term, "Rotary Spear?" This was a term for highly beveled knives like Hardins and Thebes used in the early days and even appears in a Morehead book.

[Bobby]

Where I dig, the camp has lots of Perdiz (aka "bird points") and I have found plenty of them right along with buffalo bones. When the bow and arrow came along they down sized the points so they could be used on an arrow that could be shot from a bow. A smaller arrow going at high rates of speed as long as you don't hit a rib bone will slide right through your target slicing and dicing. By the way smaller point less chance of hitting a bone.

[Bobby]

Something else the term bird point is just what a lot of people are comfortable saying. Kinda like my situation. I have a boat repair shop and if it is in liquid form and it goes on through a gun or on with a roller or brush I call it paint. People freak out when I say I have to paint their boat. "I don't want paint on my boat I want it gel-coated".
I know the difference because I have shot just about every kind of paint out there, gel-coat, urethane, emron, anti fouling, enamel base clear, single stage whatever. To me its all paint, its just easier to say like bird points.

[Mud Hawk]

Thanks for the input guys... The term is just abrasive to me I suppose. To some extent they come off as a novelty point/find and that's the end of the discussion. I really like the term "True" arrowhead. Makes me wonder how many of the vast majority of "Arrowhead" types are actually atlatl or spear heads.

I was already assuming they took more skill to create due to the size in general... easier to muck up, but I wanted a bit more input to be sure. I am sure they could take down a buffalo, but I am sure there were a couple of those being shot by several Natives to take the singular target of that size down. Maybe they are more indicative of pack hunting in a scenario like that.

I suppose yet another question applies to timeline. How far back does this scale/size of a point go? Predominantly Woodland on up or what?

All said and done... I would love to find a "bird"... errr ummm... "penny point"... Oops, I mean "true" arrowhead They really do exhibit fine craftsmanship IMHO.

[Aboman]

Arrowpoints can be easily knapped in a few minutes on an existing flake. There is much less talent and time needed to put a quick pressured edge on a flake than to start with a cobble and wind up with a 4" dart. Arrowpoints (bird points) were first made in America whenever the bow was brought to use- they say 2000-3000 years ago. Smaller tips were an integral part of bow technology.
The term bird point never bothered me at all- but the term arrowhead used to refer to all projectile points is just WRONG. Arrowheads were used only on arrows, only after they had bows. Popular websites only continue that mistake by calling themselves arrowhead sites then including the Clovises and another ten thousand years of projectile points under that name.

[Mud Hawk]

That makes sense Aboman, thank you! Perhaps their size alone just makes them a bit more elusive...

On a side note, I am very grateful for "Arrowheadology.com"