Cactus Hill

[mbrown1833]

If this thread has already taken place, please just delete this.

In any case, I'm reading about this site. Most of these articles are saying that it is 'proven' this site is 15kyo. Is this true? Is there something I'm missing? Is it possible Solutreans were finding the Americas accidentally in small pockets in pre-Clovis times?

[ghost recon]

Supposedly it is true. They found tools, bifaces, and points well under the existing Clovis horizon in Virginia. Some of the organic materials in the level were carbon dated to 20,000+ bp. The points according to some are most similar to Solutrean technology from Europe. Sometime in prepaleo times ancient man from Europe either navigated the Atlantic into N. America or crossed an ice bridge during the last ice age to get here according to the theory. That's my quick synopsis anyway.

There's a book coming out soon about this theory, although I'm sure it wont deter the doubters. I personally think that there are other prepaleo sites along the Atlantic seaboard that are now inundated by water and perhaps forever lost for confirmation.

Here's some Cactus Hill links including some pictures of the points and tools.

Cactus Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Cactus Hill Site, Page 1

Cactus Hill - Preclovis site of Cactus Hill

[paleo_joe]

Not to mention that most clovis points are found in the eastern US.

[joshuaream]

Originally Posted by mbrown1833

If this thread has already taken place, please just delete this.

In any case, I'm reading about this site. Most of these articles are saying that it is 'proven' this site is 15kyo. Is this true? Is there something I'm missing? Is it possible Solutreans were finding the Americas accidentally in small pockets in pre-Clovis times?

I don't have any issues with the Cactus Hill site, but the pre-clovis points there don't look particularly Solutrean to me... They look like small unfluted clovis darts. If someone picked up those points in France, I doubt they would be identified as Solutrean unless they were excavated from a clearly Solutrean layer.

I've pre-ordered the book on the Solutrean connection, and am looking forward to reading it.

[Mojave]

From what I've seen some of the artifacts look similar to Solutrean points from Spain which are much different from Solutrean points from elsewhere. The variety of all things "Solutrean" is great. That is part of the problem I think. Are they not similar to the Meadowcroft shelter things?

[joshuaream]

Originally Posted by paleo_joe

Not to mention that most clovis points are found in the eastern US.

More Amish people are found in Pennslvania, Ohio and Indiana than in Europe, but that doesn't mean their origin was in the US. There are 200 million Portuguese speakers in Brazil and 10 million in Portugal, but the oldest Portuguese cultures are in Portugal.

I haven't formed any hard opinions on where the oldest Clovis sites are (east, west, north or south), but the concentration or density of relics doesn't necessarily imply age. It could be simply that there was more food which lead to a greater density of population (more people, making more points, killing more animals), it could also imply that the clovis period just lasted longer in the East, which means some clovis is younger than other clovis.

The other possibility (or probability in the opinion of some people) with all of these early point types is that they weren't a single group (ie. tribe, culture, ethnicity, race, etc.) but that it was a technology that spread over existing groups. I use a fork with four tines, but my great grand parents probably used forks with three tines, maybe my great grand childred will use a five tine spork... That fork technology doesn't really say much about our culture from my point of view, but a future Archaeologist may think of us as different groups.

[mbrown1833]

josh, im looking forward to the read as well. the idea isnt too far-fetched and it could give reason as to the variety of fluted points found on the eastern sea-board, let alone the ones that have been placed underwater by past climate change. the peoples werent necessarily solutrean either; but the possibility of european descent is ponderous. however much information has been found out over the last hundred years, we may know the answer within the next two-hundred- lord willing.

[mbrown1833]

"I haven't formed any hard opinions on where the oldest Clovis sites are (east, west, north or south), but the concentration or density of relics doesn't necessarily imply age. It could be simply that there was more food which lead to a greater density of population (more people, making more points, killing more animals), it could also imply that the clovis period just lasted longer in the East, which means some clovis is younger than other clovis."

Josh, I see your point but it's almost irrelevant. We're talking about a nomadic group lasting only several hundred years. Amish living societies are chasing nothing more than solitude and a place to worship. Although similarities in micro-causes can be found, Clovis people were venturing and breaking frontiers. And the fork idea is probably more of an idea of modern trends- not really which is more evolutionary. Some have made the argument that Native Americans were evolutionarily stronger than their European counterparts. Is that crazy? We're not finding three-pronged forks.

[joshuaream]

In short here is the only really clear progression that Bradley and Stanford have really put out there so far.



Here is a better shot of what a commonly called Cactus Hill points, from the lithiccastinglab website.


Here are what are typically thought of as classic Solutrean points. There is a Solutrean style point from Spain in the first picture which looks more like our paleo.





After reading as much as I can on the Solutrean, including some painfully long stretches with a french dictionary going through some pdf's of published material from France, I tend to think of the Solutrean as basically the french word for Paleo. It doesn't really mean paleo, but I see a relatively long tradition that lasted 5K-7K years made up with at least as many different types of points as what we call paleo period...

It is older than our paleo material, but if the early dates for these Cactus Hill points is solid, they get within a couple thousand years. It's easy to say that's close enough, but considering how the entire Clovis period lasted maybe 500 years, that still seems like a big gapping hole to me. (A lot happens in 2,000 years in lithic technology.)

Again, I am really looking forward to getting Stanfords book as soon as it comes out.

[mbrown1833]

i wonder if shun or wusthof are reproducing those solutrean blades lol